Cathie's Corner Blog

Teaching The So-Called Experts

(Published February 9, 2009)

I once went to an employment law seminar at the request of my boss, who wanted me to assess whether we should hire the presenter's company to manage some of our systems. The information was pretty much HR 101, and we knew going in that I wasn't going to learn anything. She just wanted to know if I thought, after listening to the presentation, if we should utilize their services.

We did not hire the presenter's company. Much of the information he provided was incorrect. My hand was up constantly — "Are you certain? I seem to recall that the statute says...." I tried to be polite about it and I didn't want to undermine him, but by the end of the seminar, I'd had to correct him so many times that as each question in the Q&A was asked, he would start to answer, look at me, and wait to see what I did. If I nodded, he would finish the answer. If I shook my head, he'd have me answer it.

I have a friend who works for a major law firm. She has found that, for some reason, every time they go through an audit of their 401(k) plans, they get assigned to a junior auditor who doesn't know the first thing about how a 401(k) plan works. My friend ends up having to teach the auditors how to audit, before they can do their job.

What do you do when the person who is supposed to be the expert doesn't know as much as you do? There are a few different possibilities, and which you use depends on the specific situation. Above all, you want to be tactful. The last thing you want to do is make the person uncomfortable.

You can take the position that I took and play innocent. "But I thought that...." I find this to be effective, and I take care not to put them on the defensive.

If the situation is such that it's not important to correct them, you can simply disregard what they're saying. "I doodle in my notebook," one friend told me. "I design a lot of quilts that way."

If they are open to new ideas, you can teach them. The presenter at my seminar realized quickly that I knew the topic matter better than he did and allowed me to "add value."

But whatever you do, be open to learning yourself. You never know when they might have one nugget of information that you didn't have, and all learning can be valuable!

Catherine Bannon is an HR consultant in Marshfield, MA (catherine.bannon@gmail.com). Bannon worked for 10 years in HR management before starting her consulting practice.

Posted by Editorial at 2/6/2009 11:10 AM

I have 40 years in HR managment and have been consulting for the last 10, often conduting management training. I know the importance of constant updating of training content because the laws change so rapidly. When I have had a classroom of "experts" I identify them at the beginning and invite them to interrupt if I say something "stupid", because, I am not stupid, but, I may be wrong...Learning never stops.
Posted by: Scott Latham at 2/10/2009 12:03 PM

I just came from a all day work shop and I have to say that I become quickly annoyed when I am given a binder with information and then the "trainer" proceeds to read it to me, word for word.
My expectation is that either the law will be given a cases in point presented for illustration and then discussion follows...
Posted by: Barbara Fox at 2/10/2009 1:11 PM

Oh the desire for Snark is overwhelming me. I may not be able to hold back.
I love to blame lawyers. (Except for my lawyer brother-in-law, who gives me free legal advice. He's blameless.) Yes sure, you must know the law to be a good HR person. However, the law you must know is limited and we have lawyers who we rely on if things get complicated. But, HR isn't so much of a "negotiating" with employees kind of a role as it is a "coaching" role. The people who negotiate with the labor unions tend to be lawyers. The people who deal with the day to day grievances and provide general HR services to union members tend not to be.
Cathie you should study H.R 101 from what I am reading you need it, unless you intend to be a lawyer of course. Here are some basics in HR 101 that you have overlooked:

HR Generalist: Most large companies don't truly have a generalist. A true generalist does everything--benefits, hiring, business partner, employee relations.

Employee Relations: Instead of looking at the department as a whole, these folks tend to deal with individual problems. Have a problem with an employee? Go there. Have a problem with a manager? Go to ER. Employee discipline problems, performance reviews, and union grievances all that kind of fun stuff falls on Employee Relations.

Labor and Employment Law: These are the lawyers (not the HRG or ER). We love them. They keep us from making stupid and illegal mistakes. Or at least they advise us that we are making stupid mistakes and then we do it anyway.

Also in 101 you will find the HR Business Partner,Benefits, Staffing or Recruiters, Compensation, Organizational Development, and Training. And most importantly people skills. Think about it that is enough to digest. What was the Services firm’s answer in those areas, did you bother asking?

My guess is the Service firm that offered the presentation did not have a lawyer presenting it; you would have been chopped liver on the first question otherwise. I would further assume that after "your presentation" they did not want your employers business. Those are some of the basics. And I managed to keep the snark out of it. (At least for the most part.)
Posted by: Eileen at 9/24/2009 10:21 PM

I find this utterly bizarre even on this meaningless blog. Cathie may have felt like her underlings weren't respecting her and chose to assert herself in this new situation to "show who is boss." It was a foolish and inexperienced thing to do. I have attended similar seminars as Cathie. No, you would not interrupt them and no they would not ask for your opinion or for your affirmation. How unprofessional and appalling can one be? I only have one question? Cathie are you still employed by this employer? If not, I’m not the least bit surprised.
Posted by: Sandy at 9/26/2009 9:07 PM

Sandy I can answer that for you. NO WAY!!! Cathie is professing to be a consultant. In my experience they are not much better than temps, yes some have the "smarts" because it doesn't take a genius to learn HR 101, but they don't know how to "apply" it. They lack people skills; it is an unregulated industry so any con-artist can hang a shingle up declaring themselves an H.R consultant. I am interested to find if Cathie posts in any of the serious H.R blogs.

She definitely is not posting in any serious employment law blogs, which is for sure. An employment lawyer would laugh at this piece she wrote. There was no doubt her severance was waiting for her when she returned from the seminar after that lame stunt. But she left that part of the story out.
Posted by: Eileen at 10/11/2009 10:32 PM

Eileen it worse than you can imagine. My I.T people looked her up they dropped a jaw dropping paper on me, “can’t tell you everything”. She is all over the internet just Google cbg labor law (that is the user name she use frequently and it is Ladycatherine on the AHI bulletin board).

She has absolutely zero people skills; given that she has over 100,000 posts on the internet in a ten year period it is clear that she has not worked in H.R. Cathie believes she is the expert on all these forums. She has actually put together a following of mostly unemployed wannabess as well to cheer her on. Cathie not only is an expert in employment law- but on family law??? Yep! One of her nefarious activities on one site she dictates is to jump on little kids that want to emancipate from their parents.

You read her posts they are horrifying, Cathie is a wretched and despicable creature who should not be giving advice to adults let alone fragile children with issues. As far as her having her own consulting service in Manchester- it is a lie business license records just do not indicate any such thing.
Posted by: Sandy at 11/3/2009 11:43 AM

Good Lord!!! I found her Sandy she is appalling, mean, and rude. There are only three types of posters on the site she runs as a dictator. The fan base of misfits that jump on Cathie’s band wagon, posters that don’t post often, and those that just gives up. It is so easy to see her short comings, how limited she is, and why she is not in the field reading her posts on that board.

No way had she ever worked in E.R. You would never talk that way to a shop steward let alone a business agent. E.R has to settle disputes with unions not exacerbate them into arbitration. She has never worked with payroll if she thinks you can pay employees minimum wage after the first day of hire irregardless of what the agreed terms of pay and severance happens to be. And she claims to know the law??-- I don’t think so that is stupid.

Oh blech Look at the schoolmarm approach she is taking to grown people on that board she runs as the super moderator (super moderator that is hilarious). Here we are in 7th grade all over again with cbg super moderator. What a grotesque scene! The most macabre threads are the one where actual lawyers are posting. And our girl Cathie is getting the stuffing’s knocked out of her- so what does she do? Why she locks the thread that has to make her right of course. I guess that is how you teach the called experts. Cathie is big on ego small on knowledge and can not handle even the slightest bit of confrontation without loosing control. Picking on little kids I thought you were making that up Sandy. But you were not. I am utterly shocked at what I am reading from someone claiming to be in H.R.
Posted by: Eileen at 11/7/2009 11:27 PM

This story she wrote more than likely never occurred except in some forum she moderates or just a figment of her narcissistic mind. The simple reason is she does not have the basic skills to be in H.R. That is apparent in all these forums, how many H.R people get moved up creating division between the employees, managers, and the dept? NONE they get handed their severance toot sweet. How many H.R managers get promoted arguing with the companies attorneys? NONE the law dept would make such a stink they would be hitting the unemployment office.
Posted by: Sandy at 11/9/2009 12:48 AM

I am not surprised to find Cathie (cbg) spouting off here, and how predictable; ‘teaching the so called experts”…Ha….Please! I am on the bulletin board she moderates; let me tell you how she “teaches the so called experts”

She banned me (temporarily) because she gave some asinine reply to a sexual harassment question. She pretends to know everything there is to know, yet she doesn't even ask the relevant questions to determine an appropriate reply. She just automatically jumps on the employer bandwagon. And I called her out on it. She of course deleted my post and banned me. It's like she's a child throwing a temper tantrum. Banned me for what? Making her look like the idiot she is that’s why. It is a dictatorship over there.

I read some of the banter on the other pieces (of crap) she penned, and noticed the same boring routine. She E-mails her list of no nothings and they jump in on even a hint of their leader being challenged. Different user names but I recognize them. One is EllMd, the other is PattyMd… they are so pathetic.

Sandy and Eileen both hit the nail on the head. She could not have worked in any H.R dept. that is large in size. The answer and vitriol she espouses leads me to believe; that she may have been a small time manager at some mom & pop outfit, not for any employer employing more than 10 people that is for sure. 100,000 posts in ten years? There has to be some kind of craziness there. I don’t think I have written 100,000 letters in my personal and business life, let alone 100,000 posts on the internet.
Posted by: Ann D at 11/14/2009 9:40 PM

Oh now this is funny and standard fair. I posted a comment and just as predicted our girl Cathie got humming on her E-Mail address of misfit temps from various sites she supermoderates (supermoderator..that still brings out a chuckle in me). http://www.legalworkplace.com/cathies-corner-blog.aspx?id=8314&blogid=592 This Patty is nutty as a fruit cake! She swearing she knows me and I am a man. Patty-I don’t believe you know me, unless I fired you. But that does not mean I know you, I’ve fired more temps than I hired so get over it if that's the problem. Like so many temps I cut bait on, you just were not a good fit.
Posted by: Eileen at 12/4/2009 12:01 AM

Cathie’s obscure blog just became a bit more obscure. You have to squint to find her gobbledygook now. It was listed with the rest of the blogs in the FREE E-NEWSLETTERS section in the left hand column, now it’s not listed. I guess someone at AHI got some sense and declared it Apocrypha. Cathie’s corner has now been relegated to little more than a chat line for her groupies.
Posted by: Sandy at 12/9/2009 7:33 PM

What a laugh… Cathie puts on airs like she is sooo... above it all by not responding to Eileen’s comment. Then she sends in a couple of attack dogs from various forms. Patty has to be PattyMd the pattern is boorish and unmistakable. They have appalled so many people on various websites they find them every where disagreement to them turns up. I have been on the one site Cathie has been moderating since early 2008. I got a good laugh at Patty’s accusation. She could be referring to any one of hundred guys that they have clashed with.

My guess is Patty believes that Eileen is mcarson87. He is their latest boogie man, either that or its some code they use to rally the flock.
Posted by: Ann D at 12/13/2009 8:15 PM

This is mcarson87. You are probably right. She probably thinks I am Eileen. Someone gave me a link here and I was amazed to find my name. Everything that has been stated here is true and accurate. cbg and friends are all over the net professing to be experts and whenever someone disagrees with them they call on the rest of the nutjobs to defend them. Who has enough time to type the number of posts that she does? The whole HR consultant must not be going to well. Perhaps she isn't as much of an expert as she makes herself out to be.
Posted by: mcarson87 at 12/18/2009 8:04 PM

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Cathie's Corner Blog

Teaching The So-Called Experts